AR & VR Experiences: in gesprek met Jeroen van der Borght

Over deze Podcast:

Jeroen van der Borght, mede-oprichter van Wonderment by Design, deelt zijn inspirerende reis van een jonge tech-enthousiasteling naar een pionier in virtual en augmented reality. Jeroen’s verhaal begint met zijn jeugdpassie voor digitale werelden, gevormd door de vroege invloed van zijn vader en zijn opleiding aan de kunstacademie in Groningen. Zijn professionele pad voerde hem van een reclamebureau naar het mede-oprichten van een innovatieve studio in Amsterdam, waar hij samen met zijn partner Jachim van Huut innovatieve digitale ervaringen creëerde voor merken zoals Coca-Cola.

Ontdek spannende toepassingen van augmented reality en hoe deze technologie ons in de toekomst bijvoorbeeld historische locaties kan laten herbeleven. We bespreken nog veel meer mooie voorbeelden die je een beter beeld geven van wat er al kan en wat er al is.

Hoewel er nog technische hindernissen zijn, verkent Jeroen hoe AR een nieuwe dimensie kan toevoegen aan onze perceptie van de wereld. Ook verkennen we hoe de combinatie van AR/VR en AI nieuwe mogelijkheden biedt voor training en communicatie, zoals in empathiebevorderende trainingen.

 

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:

 

intro: 0:05

Welcome to Vakgenoten, the podcast about digital and innovation .

Gijsbert: 0:33

Gijsbert, welcome. Here we are again with a new podcast.

Marc: 0:37

Yes, and today again the previous one we already had here in Broeinest in Utrecht.

Gijsbert: 0:44

Superb location here, so super happy with it. Thank you, Nanne, for making this possible.

Marc: 0:50

Yes, thank you, Nanne. And today we have an episode on the subject of AR and VR, and that’s Jeroen van der Borght. Jeroen van der Borght is co-founder of Wonderment by Design And the Wonderment Factory. Welcome, jeroen, thank you, welcome. Nice to be there. Yes, great, I had. I’ve known you for a while. At Coca-Cola we did a project together. We made the Coca-Cola factory in Dongen in VR, where you could literally visit the factory and experience it all in 3D. You started with Wonderment, but let’s take a step back for a moment. How far back do we go then? And where did you eventually start, to eventually get here?

Jeroen: 1:38

Actually, we go back a long way. I think we will go all the way back to Slaghaar in Overijssel, all the way in the middle of nowhere, where there was nothing to do.

Gijsbert: 1:45

Pony park was there.

Jeroen: 1:47

Yes, indeed, and actually my father, who is an art teacher And fascinated by technology, so he made a combination of computer, so we had a computer very early on, one of the first in our class, and I was also one of the first, who played a computer game in a Kypro.

Jeroen: 2:06

I don’t know if you know that, but that’s a kind of steel. That was the first portable computer, a kind of steel case, where you could fold the keyboard. And my father, he once translated One of the Games into Dutch, and I played it as a seven-year-old boy. I played Spe, as a seven-year-old boy I played it on the Kipro, a kind of dungeon crawler, and I think that’s where the fascination started to do something with digital worlds. Then I finally went to the art academy in Groningen, where I studied media design. So that was new media, that was all very exciting too, and that’s where we actually learned, to build websites and make videos And to make my first 3D models And to make animations, and that was actually my entrance into the combination of computers and design, and that has always fascinated me. So after that I started working at an advertising agency.

Jeroen: 3:09

At the Art Academy I also met Jachim van Huut. He is also one of the co-founders of Warnermund, and we worked together at an advertising agency. There we have made campaigns for Philips, among others. But it started to itch after a year or two, that we thought, we want to make things ourselves again, not just tell other people how to make things. And then we left for Amsterdam, we started an animation studio, and from that animation studio we made commercials for a long time, so also 3D animations, designed 3D world And animated those.

Jeroen: 3:35

But that, at one point we were so done with that, that we were only making packs of chewing gum or cans of cola no offense A, packs of chewing gum or cans of cola no offense Dancing, let’s dance, that we started looking for something else. And at that moment the first VR image came out, and then we noticed that we could step into our animations, walk around in them and interact, and that fascinated, so that we actually started Monument by Design With a third partner, Sander Sneek, also a developer. So now we have a combination of design, story, that’s me and development. And when did you start Wonderment? Officially seen in 2019, but before that we had already worked a lot with Sander. So 2019 we actually officially started with Wonderment by Design.

Jeroen: 4:25

And before that was Studio 05.

Marc: 4:26

For some people, who think of VR AR, what does it stand for? Virtual reality is what we know. A lot of people also have such glasses from Oculus. There are of course several variants of Facebook, or at least Meta has such glasses. Can you explain a bit more about what AR is exactly? Yes, where you are. Can you explain a bit more about what AR?

Jeroen: 4:45

is exactly. Yes, where with virtual reality you place yourself in a virtual world, augmented reality is actually that you add something to the real world, so augment. And that can be very simple, like Pokémon Go I think, most people know that Where you have a card, and you walk around, and because you’re walking around, you can catch Pokémon there, so you’ve already augmented the world. But that is actually the advanced version, that you can also place 3D objects in the real world and let them mix together, so that via telephone or glasses, that you look at the real world and bring the digital world there. I think that’s a kind of summary.

Gijsbert: 5:24

And then I think, that sounds nice, but is it already further than spying, is it already further than grabbing a Pokémon? And I have to be honest, I have a son, who loves Pokémon, and I don’t know if he was. And at one point I went with him to Kijkduin, because apparently there was a very special, special Pokémon, and there were literally 700 people walking behind each other, to catch a Pokémon. And I have to be honest, I went from wonder that day to a kind of horror of the craziness, that people run after a virtual thing and think that that is kind of normal. I really couldn’t place it. So I still think about that sometimes. But is it already further than that? What can you really do there?

Gijsbert: 6:06

mead.

Jeroen: 6:07

Well, yes, with Pokémon they make a billion a year. So in principle, you could say that it is a relevant business model. But yes, all kinds of applications are possible. Ultimately, your mobile phone is not the end factor of digital content. That’s a very weird little window, through which you look, to bring the world in. So you get all kinds of stuff, you get all kinds of things from all over the world And you put them in a very small mini window.

Jeroen: 6:33

So, if you think about the fact that you will soon be able to wear glasses, which would remove all those elements in computing, as you call it, so it would be the logical step in the next form of digital content. Yes, for me that is a wearable, so glasses, with which you can smoothly mix digital content and the real world. And that doesn’t have to be just a computer, a 3D model or a computer project. It can also be audio, that, when I look at something, it reacts to it and then tells me something in my ear about what I see. So it’s not all 3D dolls or Pokémon walking around everywhere. These can be all kinds of different, not yet invented forms, but in any case they make more sense than something you do in your mobile phone.

Gijsbert: 7:34

I really liked the preliminary conversation. Actually, you are very far ahead of the music. You are aware of the latest trends and developments, and we are in the daily operation B2B, b2c, we are busy with our work. Can you give some practical examples of things that you see coming And you think of jesus man, but that’s really cool, I’ll soon have those glasses on, and then it’s going to do this. Can you give some of those examples?

Jeroen: 7:59

Yes, there are many different ones. To start with Pokémon, of course, Virtual Bats and gaming. That is of course a very easy step, but if you think of a more practical application, it is, when you are now in your car and you have your glasses on, that you can just see your Way finding navigation in front of you.

Jeroen: 8:22

While you no longer have to look at a small mini screen on the right, which I can’t read, because then I have to put on my glasses. Yes, exactly, because you have your glasses on, so you can just do it. Something so simple can already be a huge addition, but also with e-commerce. So, if you can just see virtual products where you want them scanned as a Goals in Splat, so that they also look hyper-realistic, then you know, what you are ordering, before you order, in the actual size, that you are actually going to order.

Gijsbert: 8:47

So, what IKEA has done with placing a piece of furniture in your environment, that was great. I think they did that with Apple, if I’m right. You actually say that the game, that’s the beginning, it will soon become real.

Jeroen: 9:01

Yes, it will soon be more real ?

Jeroen: 9:05

Look what IKEA also notices, is that the mobile is crazy, say, but that in this case the software is ahead of the hardware. So you can do it quite a lot on your mobile phone. Only, where I said, that you remove a low abstraction, if you have glasses on and you see it in your real life, you actually add a kind of low abstraction, if you look at it through your phone, so that you have to see the world again through a very small mini screen. So that makes it still in terms of UX here and there Not as fluid as you would like, but it is a very good preparation for the step, which is to come And where also a meta and belief, which we already talked about.

Gijsbert: 9:40

So we already talked about it. So we have to invest heavily in the pearls and the other glasses, because everyone has to have their glasses.

Jeroen: 9:48

Yes, well, and Meta, so they bought a larger share in Luxotica this year, because they also want to be part of that eyewear industry.

Gijsbert: 9:56

And what are you really going to focus on? Because I can imagine, you have that desk, and I think well, I guess you, that you might have liked gaming, because you were very enthusiastic. But what is really the summing of Jesus for you? If I can build and realize that later, when I’m done with that, then it’s actually good too.

Jeroen: 10:14

Yes, that’s very personal. I am very fascinated by stories, always have been. So basically, gaming is a part of gaming. For me, it was the worlds or the stories that you could unlock with that. And for me personally, what I actually prefer with my passion project, is that I can build something with which, while you walk through the city, you can also unlock the history of the city Or retrieve things lower from the history that were there at that time.

Jeroen: 10:42

And actually a bit of one of the most beautiful history projects that I know of are the stumbling stones that you have, when you walk through the city, that you walk past a point in one go and are reminded of the Second World War and the Holocaust. I don’t want to say that you always want to walk through the city and be reminded of the Holocaust, but the fact that there are so many layers in the world that you don’t see, because you live in the present time, but that you actually still are, that you can unlock those kinds of stories through augmented reality,  is something that makes me very enthusiastic. But I don’t even give it reasonably.

Gijsbert: 11:12

Sorry, Marc, I’m going to take that very seriously, because I’m a historian. So I think it’s very cool. And we were in Mexico, then we also had an app. But then you could rewind those pyramids, so you could rewind them to how it used to be, so how they were full of color And people around them, and the children had that. They really had the day of their lives. So they were just running back and forth. So they thought that was fantastic, I liked it too. But how beautiful is the IND? My son has just been in Berlin at the concentration camp. There is nothing to see there, some things on the ground, but if you can get that back And see it back.

Marc: 11:50

If you still need help with that, you have to call, which is also nice here, because I think a year, five ago, we are already talking to each other, because I also had something similar. You have the airborne landings in Ede, every year The dropping around the battle of Arnhem, so to speak. And I have an old friend who has died in the meantime, but he was literally there when that dropping took place, and he gave me that. I drove past it once. Then you come to the Ginkel Heath, and he told that story, that soldiers just came there to rescue us, and they jumped out, and some were shot very quickly, and he said, that was such a huge experience, you can’t imagine that. And I just thought so. He said, you can’t imagine that.

Marc: 12:37

And then I also went to you, wouldn’t you be able to relive that in that place, say, or with AR glasses or maybe with a screen or something. There is also sound to The whole experience. Anyway, what you often see is that it is quite expensive to make this. Who should buy this? Who should invest in it? So sometimes you are also a bit too far ahead And in of course becoming much easier and maybe more widely available, then those kinds of things might come themselves. And then I also wondered to you, jeroen that can already do much more, or are there already many more ideas, than is now possible with hardware, which we have?

Jeroen: 13:18

Yes, I think we work. That’s why I keep talking about Pokémon. We work a lot with Niantic. That is also a super fun party for me as a tech nerd, because the original founders of Niantic are the same people who also made Google Maps and Google Earth. They once started Kiel. They were bought by Google. There they set up the Maps and Earth, and then they started building Niantic, because they wanted to make a next generation map, where you can anchor the digital content and the real world to each other, so that you can actually put digital content in places in the world. That is currently possible. So we can now scan places here in the real world. We can now scan places here in the real world. We can make maps, so that you could place permanent digital objects, which are available to everyone, when you walk past them. Only now we are behind an app and in a phone, so there is the form factor, which prevents it from being adopted en masse. But the building blocks of such a map, for example, are already being built. So there is also a huge investment in that.

Gijsbert: 14:29

How far away are those glasses and those practical applications that are coming? Is that ten years? Is that shorter?

Jeroen: 14:35

Precise. If you had asked me that a year ago, I would have said five years or so. The development of hardware. It is a very difficult technical challenge, to develop a lens on a very small form factor Or to develop a projector that can actually project content in your field of view, has cameras so that you can see the world, and enough battery and processing power to put that in the right place and prepare an operating system. That’s really super complicated. Only this year Meta has presented Orion. That’s the Meta Connect. Meta is actually the largest investor in augmented reality and virtual reality technology. I think, that they have almost most of the Marc at the moment And also in terms of investment. And that is actually the Orion. That is actually the first pair of glasses that is actually wearable in terms of form factor, of which I would say oh yes, you can just put them on, when you walk around, and they expect that within now and three, four years to actually have it available to consumers.

Gijsbert: 15:45

Have you done a project with Marc and Cola, so those are like. But visible. Is projects Fun for the branding, added value for the people who walk around there. I can imagine that we now have colleagues, who are listeners, who are at a B2B company or at ING or whatever, and who think, yes, it’s coming. But what should I prepare for that now? Should I do pilots with that, to think about what I can do? Can I wait another three years? Do you have an idea of that?

Jeroen: 16:16

Yes, of course that depends super on the type of company, which you are. And which companies should get started now? I think that all companies that do something with And probably already do that, because they have to have an online presence, but that all companies that actually have to think with physical stuff How am I going to make a 3D translation of objects? And technology is moving very fast in this too. So, where you used to have to model everything, nowadays you can do them. Through a new way of 3D scanning, called Gaussian Splatting, you can scan them much more realistically. But maybe you have to start thinking pipelines for that, or how can we use them to make prototypes? How can we convert our products in a decent way?

Jeroen: 17:00

I think it’s at least very smart for everyone to start thinking about okay, what kind of impact would it have if our product could actually be projected back into the straight world? How does that change our shopping experience? How does that change ours, how the consumer sees us, if they no longer just look at us through the website? Can we deal with that in other ways? Should we deal with that in different ways If you? One person will soon be the fastest, and he will probably have the same as when the web revolution came, is there the winner in that? So I do think that you have to start thinking about that, and I think that you also have to try things On the other side. It’s not next week, or anything.

Gijsbert: 17:44

And do you see parties that are actually involved? Because it also seems to me that it is quite specific knowledge that you need to have of something, what is coming up and what the applicability is for an organization. So, you have that, but I can imagine that an average e-commerce manager doesn’t have that. So how do you start in an organization?

Jeroen: 18:02

Yes, I think it. I think it’s a matter of first of all trying and orienting a lot. So, what is the technology, what does it actually do? And brainstorming about that with a party like us or with other parties, what impact can that have on our organization? So that you first start with an inventory and don’t panic, I think, on the basis of that you would already do things, and I think, on the basis of that you would already do things. Maybe there is nothing to innovate at the moment, maybe it is not necessary at all, because I really think we are still very early. So I can imagine that you are not already thinking, we are going to invest tons in this, but it is already worthwhile to check with yourself, whether it will have an impact on your organization.

Marc: 18:48

I think what I like so much, how we got to know each other, that we are going to look at it that way, from where can we add value or where can we learn something, and the value that we had then, so at Coca-Cola, that we have a factory that is not just open to everyone. Once every three or four years you might be able to go there, or a family day, and there are consumers who would like that. So we thought Couldn’t we develop a factory tour, where you feel that you are literally in that factory? In addition, it also offered the possibility to literally stand in the production process. We have a cameraman, who literally recorded 360-degree images, literally between the machines. Then you could get much closer than we could ever have done for a visit.

Marc: 19:38

In addition, we also had the rule that you had to be at least 16 years old to be allowed to enter such a factory, to make it with safety reasons. Now young people can also put on those glasses and still get that feeling. Once we started using it, I liked it so much that we then saw new applications. So as a company we would like to tell how you deal with your sustainability goals, and then you can literally show that, then you can let them experience I took such glasses to a customer, did you go to an Albert Heijn or did you go to a Jumbo, and what was very funny about that,  that it was often the very first VR experience of such a person, setting it up for the first time. Sometimes they had a seasickness, that you got a little nauseous, because you went everywhere to look. That was phase number one.

Marc: 20:29

People who had worn those glasses before, could deal with it much better. And what I found super interesting and I think that is one of the most beautiful learnings when you have had such glasses on and you put them on for the first time, then you are so in that immersive environment, that you pay attention to completely different things than you would normally pay attention to things,  And that we also had a kind of explanation about sustainability, and we asked those people later, because what can you remember about what we said? And that hadn’t come in, because they were so busy with that immersive experience. So of course you learn a lot from that too Do you have more examples like that of how ultimately consumers also just deal with virtual reality.

Jeroen: 21:16

Yes, definitely. Consumer is of course a broad word, but if we look at the Netherlands, we are currently working on two projects. One has just been completed. We created a training in collaboration with Deloitte And I think, that in training by the way, when we think about applications we had to think about it with applications at the moment I think in training, that both AR or instructions, both AR and VR are super interesting. We also created a VR experience for KLM, but the Deloitte experience is actually about training, about empathy. So that’s a workshop for managers, high management, where actually it’s an inclusivity workshop. So it’s about getting to know whether the purpose of the workshop is that you understand that how it works in my head is not necessarily how it works in someone else’s head. That is, the way it works in someone else’s head. That is actually the core message that you have to get. So, if someone else’s perspective may be very different.

Jeroen: 22:16

And the cool thing about virtual reality is, what we’ve built is, we’ve actually created a kind of game, where you have to squeeze apples and you play together. So it’s a kind of team exercise And you also get the idea that you’re in a bigger team and playing against another team. That is not the case. But that’s what you think, when you put on the glasses, and one of the things is, that the reality for one person is not the same as the reality for the other person. Even if you see each other, even if you think you see exactly the same, it is much more difficult for one game than for the others.

Jeroen: 22:46

And what you see happening is that people actually don’t understand why they can’t do it to score well, while others say well, but it’s still very easy, you can do it very easily. And that only the fact that you would change reality per person and you actually just think, I experience exactly the same, because we see each other anyway, you are waving at me It is very different, and that teaches people. That is a perfect starting point, to start the discussion. Okay, even though it seemed the same, it’s not the same. So how can we deal with this in the workplace? So those kinds of weird elements, which you wouldn’t think of in advance. With VR you can train empathy, by playing games? can you go for other?

Marc: 23:26

totally different things. Yes, and that is also learning value, one side of value. I happened to be at Maastricht University yesterday, and they made a link there. There they have an innovation hub department, where they have made a link between VR in combination with AI. You put on such glasses, it is for people to learn to present. You put on those glasses, and then you see once that you are standing in front of 200 people in a hall. Then you start giving your presentation, and you are actually constantly recorded. That leaves you too.

Marc: 24:02

Later you can look back, and then it is indicated that you have said uh very often, or you have certain filler words, but also from where did you look And did you really touch the listener? And then they connected AI to it. So at the end, then they recorded everything. Then you get live from the audience, you are presented with five questions, which have had to do with your subject, which Chat GPT has then developed for you. So that is a very nice training chair with a nice application. Do you see more applications, also in combination with artificial intelligence?

Jeroen: 24:36

Yes, definitely, I certainly think so. A lot of our work right now is actually the fact that we work for Niantic and we also work for Meta right now, and we make productions that show that people can rely on their technology. So we are paid, to try the demos, the latest version, to see, from this we just thought of, build something with it, so that other people understand that we can build something on it. That’s actually what we do, and that’s how we did last year for N and so this is kind of a derivative. So last year we made an AR activation for Niantic, where you can talk to Santa Claus via AI.

Jeroen: 25:18

So that’s actually very simple, but that’s a complete discussion, which you can have with an artificial character in 3D, which in this case is programmed in such a way that he always shouts. It’s also a safe environment for children, so he always sends you back to the Santa story, even if you start shouting very strange things. But the fact that you can have a trainer in 3D, who walks with you Or where you can ask all kinds of questions via artificial intelligence, also opens up the possibility in gaming, but also in serious gaming, where you can actually have a guide who could tell all questions about a subject when we go back to history. So that mix of AI and VR is very interesting.

Gijsbert: 26:02

I had linked that to your previous idea, by the way to the history app. Then you get a personal assistant, who tells you what happened at that location, which you can now also see.

Marc: 26:12

It’s fascinating, because of course at one point You had It was full focus by Meta on VR Then Artificial Intelligence came all at once. Of course, that became booming a year or two ago, And everything flew away from VR Under the motto all arrows on AI. But that is very close at the moment.

Jeroen: 26:35

Yes, this is one Look. In VR and AR, machine learning and artificial intelligence are only used. Ar means that I look at something through glasses and that the camera, which is watching with me, understands the world, because otherwise it cannot fill in what it is. And that understanding of the world is AI-based. So it’s actually It interlocks. It’s not things, that Oh, you have VR, you have AR and you have AI. It’s actually all combined in one cycle. I think meta also sees AI as integration in, for example, Ray-Ban, sunglasses or glasses, which they are now release, which contain AI. That is the stepping stone, to do that with images as well. So for them, I don’t think AI is separate if they are like oh, we’re going to do something with AI, that’s linked to time, we’re going to do something with AI and later with augmented reality.

Jeroen: 27:32

Because AI is also a form of augmented reality, when I look at you now and the AI knows your names Yes- And of course there goes such a video now.

Gijsbert: 27:42

I wanted to say that, Be it still dude.

Marc: 27:45

There is currently such a video about the internet About a TV broadcast with Alexander Klubbik. That is of course manufactured, but the idea behind it is that it will all be applicable in the future. And about applicability You have of course developed a lot yourself.

Jeroen: 28:06

Why does Niantic choose such a big company? well, for One Moment, because we’re very good at him, of course. The strange thing is that, when we actually launched ARKit when Apple launched ARKit, so that you can also run AR on your iPhone via their own software, we were so fascinated that we built a lot of demos. In retrospect, it turned out that we were one of the few in the world who actually built that and could actually run it. So there were not many parties in the world who were working on that.

Jeroen: 28:39

We had a studio, which happened to have the technical skills The design skills, to make it look good, and the conceptual skills, to actually make good concepts That Niantic found us through the internet, and since then we have actually always worked together. They were looking for studios that had the skills, what a gaming studio has Normally almost all gaming studios had skills, what a gaming studio has Normally it is almost all gaming studios that build games. And we were a studio that came from visual effects and advertising, but had the skills of a gaming studio. So it was a very strange mix of circumstances.

Marc: 29:21

In the Netherlands, a few years ago, you also had those companies that focused very much on making the physical world virtual, also with LiDAR scanning and so on. Now I have such a Tesla myself, and of course it constantly scans the environment. They have already mapped everything out in Met lasers. So you’re also going to do something with Tesla, because they’ve already scanned the whole world in LiDAR, I don’t think a Tesla runs on a LiDAR, but isn’t that just on each other?

Jeroen: 29:52

Is that the difference between a Tesla and a Waymo, which runs in San Francisco?

Marc: 29:57

In any case, I understand that they.

Jeroen: 29:58

They do scan the environment.

Marc: 30:01

So also, if something happens. So they actually have some kind of scan of the world, which they also have in 3D?

Jeroen: 30:07

I think so. I think it’s a race of parties. Look, if you believe that everyone will soon be wearing glasses And that digital content must be anchored in the real world, a digital map must be made. You have to have that map, it will soon be very valuable, just like Google Maps is one of Google’s most valuable things. All the information that people have eventually entered and anchored on that map, makes that map very valuable. I think Google is working on that. They also have a Google Geospatial, so that is also a Google Geospatial. So that’s also one, where they scan that based on the satellite images and the cars. I think Tesla also have that information, and Niantic does it in a different way, which makes them want to crowdsource that more.

Jeroen: 30:56

So they have players all over the world, who scan for all kinds of locations, where people actually want to go, such as at Kijkduin, where you usually don’t go with the Google car. So she says we build the folder the other way around. So we first build the map in places where people actually want to be, and we build our map from that. But everyone is making this map, and I think they see that as a big investment for the future.

Marc: 31:23

I imagine I remember, when the Pokémon Go just came out, that would have those Pokéstops everywhere, of course, and those Pokéstops were very often just with art elements, even in our village. I thought how did they get that data? It’s super smart, of course, because there is usually already space and so on. So in the end, I also think that there are a lot of companies now that are just storing data, in order to eventually be able to put it on a certain map.

Jeroen: 31:46

They once collected that data because they had Ingress. That was their first game And all Ingress players all over the world have entered points everywhere. So there is someone in your village who has played Ingress, created that point And now you can still play Pokémon with a very large high level Can, create points yourself and indicate this is a nice place where you would like to go. So it’s a crowdsourced map.

Marc: 32:10

And as a company, you also come up with new concepts for them. How should I see that She?

Jeroen: 32:17

For example, have Caussian Splatting. They then release a new software product, and then the question is okay, can you make demos with that? Or we have an event, can you make a prototype there, so that other developers make a software sample, for example, so that other developers can download it? And we also work on products. Is there actually a lot of open source already in that piece? This might be very technical The Gaussian Splatting, so the 3D scanning technique, which is going to be the new 3D scanner. There are also all kinds of file formats. They recently released their own file format, which is actually the JPEG under the Gaussian Splat, so low and high quality. They have made it available open source. It’s kind of a mix. So I actually think that it should be a mix between all kinds of parties, that open source. It seems very scary to me, if there is one party that will soon have all access to the card.

Gijsbert: 33:23

I want to go back to you for a moment. Everyone who has a physical product should at least be able to start thinking It doesn’t have to be tomorrow, but it does help, if you already think about what is coming and how can I prepare for it. Thinking about how you are going to make your products available to the platform. We specifically had that question, and I think you have answered it a bit. But what will it mean for e-commerce in a few years? What can be done extra, and what should you do as an e-commerce manager?

Jeroen: 33:56

to be prepared for that. There are probably a lot of use cases, which I am not thinking of right now, that are also possible. But the fact alone, that the traditional form of a website, where you have a header, and then you have a piece of white, and then you have a piece of text and an image and a piece of text and an image, that idea, but of course that is no longer necessary. If I have glasses on, so when I look at these chairs, and I think, I really like them, then I should actually be able to order them. That would be the ideal, right.

Gijsbert: 34:26

I’ve always said it’s on TV. Then you just see a dude walking with glasses.

Jeroen: 34:30

So I want to find those glasses, or a nice sweater.

Jeroen: 34:34

No, so the combination of a wearable and AI Or a wearable and a different way of dealing And it understands, what it looks at, it changes, I think, a lot in the way we deal with ordering content. And scrolling on a website on your mobile phone is not the most ideal form, even though we are all very used to it now, but of course it remains a bit of a struggle between all those windows. So maybe you should start thinking more about having screens in that too. So you don’t have that little triangle anymore, but if I have glasses on, I can also project a very large screen, or I can project a completely different screen or two screens or eight screens, if I wanted to. Yes, the form factor of how we deal with e-commerce now is actually going to change enormously, and what is the best form for that, that’s another thing, that we all have to find out, I think, and I don’t know if, you didn’t play a role in that concept of IKEA, did you?

Jeroen: 35:30

No, we didn’t work with it. That was actually, when the ARKit just came out with Apple. That was a first step in that, but I don’t know how successful it was, because that’s how it is.

Gijsbert: 35:46

Well, which I found very interesting. I don’t know how successful it was either, but that kit came out, and then Apple said dude, can you do something? So IKEA cooperated with that, hired another desk, but they said, there was nothing. So there was no language or definition of what does something like that look like in space. When you put something down, it makes a sound, and what sound is that? And how do I do that? So they actually indicated and I think you actually say that everything, you can do in the platform, you have to rethink. There must be some kind of language for it, in order to be able to network that out as much as possible. So I don’t know what the e-commerce manager should do with it, but I think, if students are listening, then it might be useful to start preparing for this, because there is quite a lot of work to be done, I think.

Jeroen: 36:37

Yes, it’s the next revolution to the smartphone. At least that’s the theory, and I do believe in it, because the smartphone is not the final form in user experience.

Marc: 36:50

As far as I’m concerned. How do you see that in social? Gijsbert of course gave a good example, that everyone would play Pokémon Go. In what was the Kijkduin? In Kijkduin. That is of course all recognizable. It is often said, these kinds of things are on your own device, and you don’t share that. How do you see that in the social part?

Jeroen: 37:12

What I like about it is that you can look around you again. Now everyone looks down with a noded head, but the moment you remove that small triangle again, then it is worthwhile to look around you, and the nice thing about that is, that you can therefore Because you can place the stories in a lot of places, that you can anchor things to the real world again,  that you can also go out to discover things. So you can, and I think that’s the good thing about Pokémon Go. It has sent a lot of young people outside, to actually make, while they were actually inside, behind a Playstation 5.

Marc: 37:43

Just go and brood out of something.

Gijsbert: 37:47

Are there also people who are already thinking about frameworks and principles on which you do that? We had a nice conversation from KPN about AI. That’s where they started Defining the preconditions, what is allowed, what is not allowed. Because I can imagine, if you put on glasses, and there is an AI attached to it and all the data is unlocked. Then I can look at you and basically go search, then you can name your name to what you do socially, et cetera. So just by looking at someone, you have the opportunity to look up all that information that is freely available. Is that still desirable? So there have to be new boundaries, people have to think about it, of what is possible, what is not? Or freedom, happiness, we’ll see.

Jeroen: 38:29

Yes, I think that in the end people have to think about What is possible, what is not possible Alone? I think that it is also just like with AI, that you should not start thinking too early what is not possible, before you know, what can actually be thought, what is not possible, before you know, what is actually possible. It’s a bit like you can start regulating too early, so that you actually chase away all innovation from the Netherlands or from Europe, in which America can actually do anything, and so you are always behind the facts and are only the regulating, the regulating part of the world, while the rest of the world innovates. I think there is a risk there, so that everyone is already getting too scared of oh yes, but then you can see my face later.

Jeroen: 39:08

In that example, they use apps that are actually already there. So that would be possible, if I wanted to. There are cameras everywhere in the street, so that is already possible. The only question is whether you want me to be able to do it. So I actually think, yes, that should be regulated, yes, you should think about it carefully, but you shouldn’t be too afraid of it either.

Gijsbert: 39:27

That would be my theory, and you indicated, it happens in different places in the world. You are very far in that. Can you take a broader view and say, what is the role of the Netherlands in this?

Jeroen: 39:40

What place should we want? Well, funnily enough, the Netherlands. In the field of AR and VR, we are quite ahead. I keep hearing that from America. I actually think that we are very well positioned, because we also have a super digital society. I think in Dutch digital design anyway, so how we design websites and how we deal with it, that we are actually very good at it. So I actually think that the Netherlands could play a very big role in that new world in terms of design and user experience, because we actually have the people and are used to the idea of dealing with a lot of digital products compared to many other countries in the world. And the only disadvantage in the Netherlands is that everyone always thinks that the world is bigger than it actually is.

Gijsbert: 40:24

And you are already working with the university. I’m thinking, it’s nice, to bring these kinds of use cases to the table, because that’s where the new talent is, I think. We will soon determine what our world will look like through the glasses.

Jeroen: 40:37

We are currently not working with the colleges or universities. Of course, it’s always super fun. Or university, of course it is always super fun to do report. We have done projects for the University of Paris, but that was really just a commissioned work, so no lectures or anything.

Gijsbert: 40:56

And back to the e-commerce manager, would you like to give him another tip as a colleague.

Jeroen: 41:05

What he should do. In any case, I would delve into it a lot. So, try, visit fair, try, have those glasses on, also to really try things out. I think, that a lot of people see videos Via LinkedIn or via the internet, but there are always very few people, who actually buy glasses and just play some games And see, how that works And if you actually. I think it’s always good, for what? To do a session, where you think, what, if there is no screen anymore, what, if our world no longer takes place in that triangle, what is possible? And to turn it into a kind of brainstorm or a kind of dream plan, and then you don’t have to implement everything concretely right away, but at least that gives you a kind of look for the future.

Jeroen: 41:52

That you think to yourself of oh yes, but maybe we can already do this, or maybe it’s smart, to go our stuff already. Do we scan that pipeline for that, or are we going to try 3D, or are we going to test, what will our product remain? Government in augmented reality or in virtual?

Marc: 42:07

reality. I also think that by using education, so training and so on, which is also very quickly applicable, which also offers its value, you will very quickly get people who will experience it for the very first time. And the crazy thing is, when those people generally put on such glasses for the very first time, then within half an hour you have all kinds of ideas, what else can be done with it, and that is actually a very nice concept, to see, say, that the potential is enormous.

Jeroen: 42:37

There are quite a lot of barriers, jeroen do you think, when will those barriers be gone? Well, I think, that’s it now. You always have the hype cycle, where you first think everyone thinks that more is possible than it is actually possible, and then you get such a huge dip, in which everyone thinks well, that’s really not going to work anymore. That’s the VR, which goes to you next, and after that it goes faster than you expect. So I think we’re getting into the part gradually. It goes faster than you expect. So because we have those glasses, that we finally have glasses that work in terms of form factor and battery life, that, that are there, they are still too expensive. So it’s ten house euros for a pair of glasses, no one is going to pay that, but at Meta gelo those prices can get down within two to three years. So yes, then it can go very quickly all at once, and that you sometimes notice oh, it’s, my neighbor can do different things than I can, then I actually want those glasses too.

Marc: 43:32

How do you see it for yourself? And where do you want to go with Wondermint?

Jeroen: 43:37

Yes, what we actually watch. We are actually a very bad company, but we are very good makers.

Jeroen: 43:46

So we really like, to put it in a good pitch, no, yes, in the sense of we’re, we’re super passionate, to develop the technology, and we make use cases very quickly. But because we are at the very front of the technology, I can’t say oh yes, but I’m rolling this out. You can’t walk out now and not anchor on the ground. That again requires money. It’s all custom work, it’s all highly specialized work. So I can’t, say, but scale up to oh, we’re going to take over the whole world. But the moment those glasses actually become available, it will be the same as what happened with digital agencies or with website builders. Then it is everyone’s question at once: Do you need that?

Jeroen: 44:25

And then I also think, that it will be much easier for us, to scale up or to be watered, and until then I just think it’s great, as a tech nerd in Silicon Valley to just walk around in Silicon Valley and get paid by the companies, to make nice things.

Gijsbert: 44:40

To play, are you already preparing? You say, that growth comes after 1 to 3 years. So you are consciously hiring youngsters with specific talents, to make that growth possible in the future.

Jeroen: 44:50

Well, what we’re actually doing for now is that, because we’ve made a lot, a lot of prototypes, we’ve tried a lot of things over the last few years. We are now with Wannerman Factory, we have Wannerman by Design. That’s really the boutique agency, where we all take on custom software projects. At the Wannerman Factory, we want to develop a prototype that we have developed before, that worked very well and that we have also tested, into products that we can actually release. So actually, that’s the split that we’re making now, where we keep the ethical ones on the one hand and actually use cases that can now sell works on the other.

Marc: 45:33

I had another question about Unity. You develop a lot in Unity. Is that the language for VRAR?

Jeroen: 45:42

Yes, at the moment. That’s the software package in which it’s developed, I think, because it’s the most accessible. It’s the most resources and there are the most people doing it, and they have a very large library for VR and AR. So I would say, unity is definitely something, but you also have Snap Lens Studio, for example, where you can actually make AR filters without programming knowledge. You have Niantic Studio. Do you need to have more programming knowledge? But that also works a lot in your own coding language. But if you want to write really complex software programs, then I would have it in you.

Marc: 46:26

Gijsbert, we come to the end of this podcast. Jeroen, thank you very much for coming, which I know for sure anyway, that we should have you again in two years. Because then of course it is, then it is really history this.

Jeroen: 46:41

I’m sitting here with my glasses on.

Gijsbert: 46:42

Well, yes, I wanted to say, then we’d like to see it for the viewers at home. There are three men sitting here with glasses on. Always nice, you are the specialist, and we are indeed isolating. But I can imagine that you say dude, we have layered a lot, but I should or wanted to tell you this is missing.

Jeroen: 47:00

Yes, I think that the use cases, which are now most useful in VR and in AR and that is going to be a So that’s not necessarily e-commerce, but that’s really the training side A lot of training programs are already being set up, where you have For example, for KLM that’s been a year already,  Maybe a year and a half ago we set up a training program, where you can do a check around an airplane. You walk around it, you do a quiz, and that was something, what you normally have to put to an airplane on the ground, you have to be able to get behind customs, so you have to take all passports. That kind of thing is much more efficient and much cheaper in VR. So there are actually a lot of use cases, especially in training, where you have a controlled environment and you can put on the glasses, you don’t have to do it at home. So it’s not consumers, but controlled environments are already a lot of use cases that you can think of, where you can just make a profit.

Gijsbert: 48:00

Yes, value can be created, because I see, I think, that you can add that very well in top sport, where you can make standard situations repeated, and then you can suddenly train a hundred times, without being physically strained. So that suddenly becomes quite funny.

Jeroen: 48:14

Yes, that’s right, there are also companies in the Netherlands that are already very much working on this.

Marc: 48:17

Can you tell Jeroen, thank you very much for this time And for coming.

Gijsbert: 48:24

Yes, jeroen, thank you very much. The following applies to everyone If you would like to attend a podcast live, please let us know. And I hear that you have to say, you have to click on such a link somewhere, to imagine yourself, subscribe now.

Marc: 48:40

That’s it, and I look on LinkedIn with our peers group Peers digital and innovation And sign up, and then we might see you live with a peers, that anyway, or we will also visit next year in a study trip to Dublin.

Gijsbert: 48:58

To Dublin, where we will hopefully pass, if it works out at Meta Anders, at one of the unicorns, Irish unicorns. Beautiful companies are among them And a number of startups. Final program is yet to be announced, but sign up, and then you can also influence the travel program.

Marc: 49:15

Yes, and maybe Jeroen can connect us with someone until the next notes. Thank you, jeroen, thank you, thank you Bye.

Gijsbert: 49:27

Gijsbert Dag Marc.